Please identify

"Highlander-Datsuns are Forever" (jamesbowland) 06/04/2019 at 11:17 • Filed to: Planeopnik

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What is this? It’s a WWII British plane I know that much . Searching for “two prop WWII british war planes” did not result in a find. The canopy does not look right for a spitfire. Then there is that second bubble. 

BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 11:21

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It’s a plane.

Spaceball-Two > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 11:22

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It’s a French Alize from the 1950s

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo 06/04/2019 at 11:23

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TheRealBicycleBuck > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 11:24

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Fairey Gannet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Gannet

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Spaceball-Two 06/04/2019 at 11:24

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That explains why it’s ugly. 

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 11:26

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Fairey Gannet.

Spaceball-Two > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 11:26

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Yup!

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Spaceball-Two 06/04/2019 at 11:28

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bicyclebuck got it, it’s a fairey gannet, british not french. 

WilliamsSW > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 11:29

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Fairey Gannet I believe —

AuthiCooper1300 > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 11:29

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Gannet

Ash78, voting early and often > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 11:29

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Fairey Gannet

(I didn’t know this, I googled using keyword “counterrotating” which helped )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Gannet

user314 > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 11:30

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That’s Fairey Gannet , a post-WWII carrier-based sub-hunter and airborne early warning plane. About the only thing more wonky than those wings were the engines:

Fairey selected an engine based on the Armstrong Siddeley Mamba turboprop: the Double Mamba (or “Twin Mamba”), two Mambas mounted side-by-side and coupled through a common gearbox to coaxial contra-rotating propellers.

KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 11:30

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Reverse Google search says Fairey Gannet AS6

UserNotFound > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 11:34

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It’s a Fairey Gannet.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Ash78, voting early and often 06/04/2019 at 11:36

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I think a good number of us knew this one already, which is possibly cool but certainly a little troubling.

BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 11:40

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Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > user314 06/04/2019 at 11:42

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Cool video!

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo 06/04/2019 at 11:43

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Someone paid $ 14.98 for that cake.

kanadanmajava1 > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 11:44

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I think French Alize is fairly attractive. Yeah, it’s actually Alizée but pretty much the same name.

AuthiCooper1300 > Ash78, voting early and often 06/04/2019 at 11:48

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. . . e v e n t h o u g h the propellers in the Gannet are contra-rotat i n g , j u s t l i k e o n y o u r f r i e n d l y B e a r .

ttyymmnn > Spaceball-Two 06/04/2019 at 11:50

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This is the Alize. Similar concept, but only a single engine and single prop.

ttyymmnn > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 11:54

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Other’s have ID’d it. The Gannet is one of my favorite aircraft. The Double Mamba was a beast. I also wonder how warm it got in that radar operator’s position set between the exhausts.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > AuthiCooper1300 06/04/2019 at 11:55

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Good clarification. Counter-rotating would be as the P-38, as immortalized in a line of the song “give me operations”.

If only EssExTee could be so grossly incandescent > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 12:03

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It identifies as an Apache attack helicopter

ttyymmnn > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 12:07

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HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 12:09

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Shit, I would too. That’s gold right there.

random001 > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 12:09

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That is an airplane.

ttyymmnn > user314 06/04/2019 at 12:09

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Those wings are quite a feat of engineering. Excellent video.

ttyymmnn > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 06/04/2019 at 12:12

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I take full responsibility.

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/this-date-in-aviation-history-september-19-september-1828999696

ttyymmnn > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 06/04/2019 at 12:13

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Counter-rotating, top, versus contra-rotating. 

MonkeePuzzle > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 12:16

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much like a 200k mile boring camry on craigslist, just becuase they listed the price at $6k doens’t mean someone paid it.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > ttyymmnn 06/04/2019 at 12:19

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My first encounter with the Gannet was in a 1979 Jane’s as below:

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > ttyymmnn 06/04/2019 at 12:24

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Something which may amuse you:

This is the power unit from a Matilda II infantry tank. It used two AEC bus engines...

AuthiCooper1300 > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 06/04/2019 at 12:29

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Thank you, I had never heard about that song! Pray, sir... what does AB refer to - air brake?

B y t h e w a y , I s e e m t o r e m e m b e r s o m e v e r y e a r l y P - 3 8 s d i d n o t have a counter-rotating setup , c o r r e c t ?

HammerheadFistpunch > user314 06/04/2019 at 12:32

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Hey Fairey, why you make such a weird plane?

I dunno

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > HammerheadFistpunch 06/04/2019 at 12:35

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If Kinja made a plane. 

ttyymmnn > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 06/04/2019 at 12:37

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I know very little about these things. Are there synchronization issues with using two engines? Or it is just spinning power through a gearbox?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > AuthiCooper1300 06/04/2019 at 12:39

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Probably air brakes, but I don’t know.

I am not aware of any lack of counter-rotation. The XP-38 had counter-rotation in one direction, and it was reversed on the YP-38s for better stability, which tells me that it was always intended and that certainly no production models went without.

The F-82 twin Mustangs had a quirk of drag that required a reversal as well, but were also always counter.

There is one trick with countered props, in that a sudden engine loss creates extreme weirdness on a throttle-up of the remaining engine. Possibly fatal weirdness - to wit, roll and yaw.

user314 > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 06/04/2019 at 12:45

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If Kinja made a plane, it’d be an ekranoplan :

user314 > random001 06/04/2019 at 12:53

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RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > ttyymmnn 06/04/2019 at 12:57

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It depends on how it’s done. If engines are formally linked together, then whichever engine is the stronger or better tuned of the two (which you hope is neither, but will still be likely), that one engine will be “pulling”, the other “dragging” to a very small extent. One may run infinitesimally lean, the other rich, and so on. If the engines are both feeding into a “torque blender” (similar in some respects to what is used in a Prius hybrid system), then (if it’s symmetric) the engines can run at independent speeds and the output will be some factor of the average of the two.

Or, something like a fluid coupling can be used.

Typically, you’d want a. your power to be blended before the transmission so you don’t have to run multiple cluster gears, and b. you’d want to be able to cut out or disconnect one engine if it broke. I don’t know if the Matilda II handled the latter issue with two clutches or what.

For an offroad vehicle, sometimes there are two independent drivetrains - and while the “pulling/dragging” is taking place through the medium of the ground, it’s a much softer sort of connection. See for examples of the “independent drivetrains” the Twini Mini, the 2CV Sahara and the Zil 135.

ttyymmnn > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 06/04/2019 at 13:05

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Well, I’m still a little confused, but thanks. I don’t have a mechanical mind. My brother got that. 

random001 > user314 06/04/2019 at 13:06

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Hah!

AuthiCooper1300 > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 06/04/2019 at 13:08

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Just looked it up. It seems the Brits and the French ordered at first some Allison-engined ones (non-turbocharged). For parts commonality reasons (with the Tomahawk) both engines rotated clockwise:

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p38_7.html

W h i l e l ooking for this I found a n interesting q u o t e on the F-82 v s t h e L i g h t n ing a n d w h y i n the P-38 the top tips o f t h e p r o p e l l e r s move outwards w h e r e a s in the F-82 they move inwards ( V m c , “ m i n i m u m c o n t r o l s p e e d i n a m u l t i - e n g i n e d a / c ” , a n o t h e r t h i n g I l e a r n e d t o d a y ! )

http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?324-P-38-Prop-rotation-question

I regret that I don’t have any P-38 time, but some years ago, I was a patient in a Navy Hospital and my room mate for several weeks was a USAF Colonel. With a lot of time to kill, we talked a lot. He flew P-38s in the Big One, F-82s in Korea and B-58s in the cold war.
He said that the P-38 was intentionaly configured to be unstable. A high Vmc was an accepted trade off. On the other hand, The F-82's props swung the other way like Piper twins. It was configured for stability. Missions were long. Lots of gas on board. He said that it was a gentleman’s plane. Low Vmc. An engine cut was a non event.

AuthiCooper1300 > user314 06/04/2019 at 13:17

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Oh man, I love ekranoplans. Just the idea of zooming across the Black or the Caspian Sea at +300 knots.

O n t h e o t h e r h a n d . . . c a n they r e a l l y be called planes , o r a i r c r a f t ?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > ttyymmnn 06/04/2019 at 13:30

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If you link two engines together directly , you’d better link their throttles together and tune them almost exactly the same, or they’ll be miserable. Think of one engine as straining like pushing a car uphill, and the other getting “dragged” like in a car engine-braking downhill.

Or, to avoid that, use some fancy gearing kind of like a backwards differential to allow them to run at different speeds and both push the same shaft. Like how the driveshaft pushes wheels at different speeds. That’s easier, but means you slow way down if one engine stops, and ideally you have a brake on the dead engine to keep the “live” one from trying to turn it backwards . And your clutch needs to be *after* the combining part, or the whole thing will just spin with one engine disconnected.

In either case, you want the two engines’ power combined first , then available to stick in your gearbox - unless you’re demented and/or Russian.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > ttyymmnn 06/04/2019 at 14:10

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I posted more matilda II stuff.

user314 > KingT- 60% of the time, it works every time 06/04/2019 at 16:31

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That is not an attractive airplane by any stretch, but in that paint scheme, I have to say it works.